325-SYB-Wendy_Kendall.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Carol Cox:
If you’ve ever felt like traditional marketing approaches don’t sit well with you. You’re going to love my conversation today with Wendy Kendall. On this episode of The Speaking Your Brand podcast. More and more women are making an impact by starting businesses, running for office and speaking up for what matters. With my background as a political analyst, entrepreneur and speaker, I interview and coach purpose driven women to shape their brands, grow their companies and become recognized as influencers in their field. This is speaking your brand, your place to learn how to persuasively communicate your message to your audience. Hi and welcome to the Speaking Your Brand podcast. I’m your host, Carol Cox. I have the biggest light bulb moment in this episode. Towards the end of our conversation, we are continuing our series that we’ve been doing on how marketing is changing and new approaches that you can take to more effectively connect with your audiences and prospective clients. Last week I talked to Karen Steinman about relationship marketing and strategic collaborations. The week before that I talked about how we’re ditching the traditional Hero’s Journey framework for marketing because it’s so focused on the individual. And rather I see that we’re really we need a shift and we’re seeing a shift to the collective instead. Today I’m excited to have on the podcast Wendy Kendall, who’s a chartered psychologist and a co-founder of the Self led Practice who works with independent mental health practitioners to help them to grow their practices.
Carol Cox:
I invited Wendy to come on the podcast because a few months ago she shared a post on LinkedIn about what she calls regenerative marketing, a framework she developed to better serve her clients in the marketing that her clients are doing for their practices. And you know how much that we love frameworks here at speaking your brand. So as soon as I saw her framework, I knew that I needed to learn more. And I was also intrigued because how she was talking about marketing aligns so well with how I was thinking about a better approach to marketing. Wendy and I talk about why traditional marketing approaches didn’t sit well with her or with her clients, why so many of us don’t like to lead with pain points and problems in our marketing and messaging and what to do instead. What regenerative marketing is. So what does this mean and why did Wendy put it together in her framework? How Wendy approaches her marketing, including on LinkedIn, which is the primary social media platform that she uses. And then at the end, as I mentioned, I had this huge light bulb moment when Wendy talks about survivor bias in the context of social media marketing. I know this doesn’t make sense, me just saying survivor bias and social media marketing.
Carol Cox:
That’s why you have to listen, because I have a feeling you’re going to have an aha moment as well. Enrollment is open for our Thought Leader Academy. If you would like to work together on your thought leadership message, your storytelling, and to create your signature talk from beginning to end so you have the clarity and confidence you need to put yourself out there so that you can do presentations for lead generation to grow your business also so that you can get paid for your speaking engagements and workshops. The Thought Leader Academy is the place for you. We spent eight weeks together in weekly group Zoom calls, plus you get a three hour virtual VIP day where we work together to create your signature talk using our signature talk canvas framework. It truly is a game changer. You can get all of the details as speaking your brand.com/academy. Again, that’s speaking your brand.com/academy. You can sign up directly or you can schedule a call with us if you have questions and want to make sure that the Academy is the best fit for you. We are happy to have a conversation with you again. Go to speaking your brand.com/academy to get all of the details. Now let’s get on with the show. Welcome to the podcast, Wendy.
Wendy Kendall:
Hi, Carol. It’s great to be here. Thanks for inviting.
Carol Cox:
Me. Well, I’m excited to dig in to your framework called Regenerative Marketing. We’re doing a series this month about how marketing is changing and new approaches that we can take as entrepreneurs, as content creators, as speakers, as thought leaders to make sure that we are connecting with our audiences in a real way, in a genuine, authentic way. And, you know, for those of us who’ve been around business for a while, we know that marketing has its good and its bad. As the saying goes, marketers ruin everything because we take a good thing and then we like apply all these things to it that take away all the humanity. And that’s I know what we want to infuse back into the marketing that we’re doing. So, Wendy, tell us the work that you do and who you work with.
Wendy Kendall:
Okay. I’m an organizational psychologist. I know in America it gets called a IO industrial organizational psychology. And I spent a lot of time working with big companies. But then in the last five years or so, I’ve ended up applying this lens back to my own profession. So I work a lot with psychologists of different kind of backgrounds. I work with therapists and other mental health providers, clinicians and so on, mental health service providers. Um, this intersection of our private practices, how we. Grow and develop private practices was is really how I ended up coming to this topic of how do we market those practices in a way that isn’t overwhelming for the practice owners?
Carol Cox:
Yes, and I know that I had found one of your LinkedIn posts from a few months ago about regenerative marketing, and I’ll include a link to that in the show notes as well as the LinkedIn live that you did around this topic. And here’s how you just how you set up the LinkedIn live, because I want to talk about this and here’s what you wrote. You said, I psychologists, we often find social media and marketing mystifying, exhausting and emotionally triggering. And I’ll just add, I don’t think it’s just like colleges who find that many of us. And then you go on to say commercial marketing and social media strategies are often based on triggering clients fears, and this doesn’t align well with our professional values. So tell me a little bit about like, how did this revelation or this understanding come to you?
Wendy Kendall:
Partly because of my own experiences over the years of working with different marketers to try and pitch my own messages at the right position, and then also working with psychologists, trying to help them to think about how they were pivoting and diversifying their practices. And what I was observing was that so many of my clients and in fact, you know, resonating with this experience as well, because I’d also experienced it. But so many of us were getting really stuck in certain aspects of our marketing. And some of it was purely because, you know, the classic that would get people stuck would be a marketer would say, Well, what’s your biggest pain point? Like, what’s your client’s biggest pain point? And because we need to like put that on your home page. And they’d be like, Well, yeah, but the biggest pain point might be, you know, for some of my some of my practice owners, their biggest pain points might be experiences of really deeply wounded things. And they were like, okay. And then they would start to feel really kind of stuck. They would start to feel like this doesn’t feel very comfortable. But I’m being told this is what I should do. And and then they would start to say, Well, what’s the problem with me? Why can’t I do this? Why am I getting so stuck? And I just started thinking, I don’t think it’s us that’s the issue here. I think we need to think differently about really what are we doing when we are building our online presence as mental health practitioners? Is there a different way of being when we’re online that is more aligned with us as practitioners? So that that was kind of the beginning of the story.
Carol Cox:
And I appreciate that, Wendy, because I hear this not again, from other entrepreneurs, not just from people in the mental health field, psychologists and counselors, and that we really we don’t want to lead with the pain point or the problem that prospective clients have because, sure, maybe they have a desire or a need, but it feels very negative. And like you said, fear driven to constantly lead with the pain points. And it’s almost as if we are we’re doubting the intelligence of our audience by kind of hammering on these fears versus like, what is it that you want? How can we partner with you and help you to achieve what it is that you want to achieve for yourself?
Wendy Kendall:
Right, exactly. And there was a couple of additional things that started to really raise my concerns about this approach. One is just putting myself in the shoes of somebody who’s maybe looking for a certain kind of mental health service. But I mean, so as you said, so many people now are working in businesses where they are helping people to live lives that are more aligned with where they want to go. Right. So a lot of us are in the behavior change business. And I would be putting myself in the position of someone who is maybe spending a couple of hours scrolling for those services and what they experience is triggering message after triggering message after triggering, message after triggering message. And what happens and this is the other thing that I’m really concerned about is that is that we shut down a lot of people who are like, you know what? This is just too overwhelming. And this is particularly concerning given that our rates of mental health issues in a lot of people are dealing with enough anxiety, enough complexity, enough overwhelm and enough burnout already. So I just started thinking, we know that social media is not helping people’s mental health. We know it’s designed to be triggering. Let’s think about a different way of going about this. Yeah.
Carol Cox:
And I am so glad that that you are doing this and. That we’re having more of these conversations. So, Wendy, let’s talk about your regenerative marketing framework. You know, here at speaking your brand, we love a good framework. So you so you have me a framework. Tell me about the regenerative marketing framework.
Wendy Kendall:
Yeah. So regenerative marketing is a thing. So I started looking into this. So why why does it get called regenerative marketing? Even marketers themselves have been looking at how can we build longer term relationships with people in a way that and through our marketing that we’re actually resourcing and supporting and developing the communities that we’re working with? Another thing that I’m really that I would add to that framework is I think it’s really important that we think about ourselves as business owners and practitioners as part of that community, so that we’re not just thinking about doing marketing to people, but that marketing is a place where we can come into connection with people and can come into connection with our community, right? So that’s kind of a couple of principles within the framework really. Then mean the framework itself. When you look at the LinkedIn live, you know, did a real hour deep dive into that. But essentially I’ve come up with an acronym. We like an acronym, right, to try and simplify these kind of frameworks. We’re looking at trying to market for safety and connection and help people feel safe to connect with us. And so really the acronym that I came up with was the acronym SAFE. The S is for safety, not triggers, thinking about our social media content or when we’re looking at how we structure a sales page or a home page. We’re thinking about not, you know, the deepest wounds that people have, but we’re looking at how are people keeping it together? What are the coping strategies that they are using to get through their every day? When I you know, when I put myself in my client’s shoes and think about how they’re keeping it together, can I then in my copy, offer clarity around how we’re going to help them and make that easier for them? So everyone’s just trying to get through the day.
Wendy Kendall:
How are we going to make it easier for them? And that’s that first offer of safety as opposed to triggers like emotional trigger words or urgency and scarcity. You know, get it now or else it’s going away and you’ll never get any more help in your life. So that’s the s safety not triggers the A stands for being aware of the wounds. So when we consider our clients having a mind for the deepest wounds that they have that are associated mean. I was reading a thread recently where someone was discussing that they they have a a business that is around helping people to declutter their home that, you know, some of the people within their online program had struggled around elements of that. Now we think that decluttering is fairly uncontroversial. Right. But you can imagine that it comes with a lot of potential for shame, a lot of potential for feeling like a failure. And those might be what we call the deepest, you know, the biggest pain points. So can we hold those with a little bit more empathy than just going there and triggering them? So, you know, being aware of the wounds and saying things in our copy like we know that these this can also feel difficult. We know that this can feel really challenging. We know that sometimes this brings up other, more difficult emotions for people. You’d probably you’d work with that a little bit from a copy point of view.
Wendy Kendall:
But the message is we know this can be really hard and it can bring up some other stuff and we can help with that as well. But let’s just help you feel safe. First, the F is think about first steps being connection. So can we make it clear in our copy how they can connect with us and really focused on connection? Because one of the marketing mantras is do they know, like and trust you before they can work with you in the mental health space? You might not get a client’s trust until 12 sessions in. So do we really have to make trust such a bar before they can work with us? So let’s think about helping them feel safe to connect. And we’ll work on the trust. And then the e of safe stands for emphasize empathy. So empathy, empathy, empathy. Let’s put ourselves in the shoes of our of our clients and really help them to have those messages of I see you, I care for you. I’m here to I’m here to help you. I’m here to make it easier, not more complex for you. So yeah, that’s, that’s kind of the overview really, the simple kind of overview of what that regenerative framework is about. And think it as I mentioned earlier, it kind of applies to us as practitioners as well. How can we set up our marketing so that it feels safe for us so it doesn’t feel overwhelming so that we aren’t putting ourselves into spaces where it where it’s overwhelming and triggering and so on. We’ve got to think of what works for us as well.
Carol Cox:
Well, Wendy, in that in that vein, can you share with us how you approach your own marketing for your business that you know, to bring in new practice owners so that you can guide and coach them? What are some of the how number one like mindset wise? Do you sit down like every month or every week and say, okay, like, here’s the marketing campaigns or here’s the here’s the marketing messaging that I want to put out in pursuit of X goal, right? You know, to attract certain number of clients, either one on one or for a program. You can tell us a little bit more about how you work with them. And so like mindset wise and planning wise, how do you sit down? We’ll do that first and then we’ll come back to maybe more specific around content.
Wendy Kendall:
Yeah, I think planning wise, we literally built a 90 day content strategy generator tool. So because I was finding it, I have so many ideas and I can follow so many bunny holes or, you know, Internet wormholes that and also I work with my daughter. My daughter is the managing director of the company and she’s like, you know, she’s very kind and she’ll kind of roll her eyes when I come up with yet another idea. So something that we could share with one another that will help us to work on certain themes. And then from that place, a lot of what I do actually, because we use LinkedIn as our main social media platform and a lot of what we do is based around conversations, and I think that really fits with our client group as well, because everything that we do as psychologists and therapists is to do with narrative, is to do with stories, is to do with the conversations and the connection that you get with people. You know that that’s a lot of our outreach, a lot of getting into conversations in different spaces, being on podcasts. We’re just looking at creating our own podcast now so you don’t see us doing a lot of this kind of TikTok dancing or anything like that. It’s a lot more kind of being seen in in the conversations. Well, I.
Carol Cox:
Was going to ask you, Wendy, which channels are you primarily using? And it aligns very much with what we do here at LinkedIn as really our only social media platform that we are active on. And then obviously the podcast, but then podcast guesting as well, and of course public speaking. Since you have attention from the audience versus distraction, you know, people scrolling through their feeds and then obviously then you have opportunity for so much richer of a conversation and an exchange versus literally 15 seconds of someone, you know, thumbing through and scrolling through whatever your post was.
Wendy Kendall:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And LinkedIn works really well for us as a and I’m always recommending it to my clients as well. It works really well for us as a platform because the conversations that you have on there are quite evergreen and they’re searchable because then you can add hashtags and obviously people can go to your profile, search your activity and find the conversations that you’re in as well. You know, gosh, over the years I’ve had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of business through LinkedIn from but without having to, you know, do a load of like in-depth posting on there.
Carol Cox:
Well, let’s talk a little bit about your LinkedIn strategy, because I know so many of our listeners are also primarily using LinkedIn as well because they find it more effective, they find it more enjoyable for themselves and they find it more effective to reach prospective clients. So how often are you posting on LinkedIn? Is it primarily post? How often are you doing LinkedIn lives? Can you give us a little behind the scenes of that?
Wendy Kendall:
I’ve built my network up now over. I think I first had my profile optimized in 2008, and so over the years I’ve really built my connections up. I think I’m up to. Just under 14,000 connections on there. Now that has been through mostly conversations on there. So just getting into the conversations that really interest me and, you know, think was it Gary Vaynerchuk who talks about his 64 cent strategy or something like this? It’s it’s something about, you know, going putting your $0.02 on lots of things. Well, that’s the easiest thing in the world for me because I happen to have a lot of opinions on things. I love it. So I love that Gary Vaynerchuk has celebrated this strategy. But that’s called, you know, being opinionated on the Internet and standing for something, right? Um, and being curious with people, asking them questions and, and so on that inevitably very quickly with LinkedIn leads to people either messaging, it leads to people saying, do you want to meet up? It leads to them saying, Do you want to go on the podcast? I always say to my clients, if they don’t feel confident putting putting posts out there, actually going and being present and connecting with people and going and having real human conversations on something like LinkedIn is a good strategy. It will get you opportunities, connections and business.
Carol Cox:
Yes, I completely agree. Yes. And and I love that you are opinionated and that you claim it because I think more women should have opinions and should share them. Yeah.
Wendy Kendall:
And LinkedIn is a little bit safer, a little bit safer than some other social media platforms. You know, it’s a little bit of social inhibition for the trolling point of view. They still look, there are fewer trolls. There’s no officially anonymous accounts. There might be, you know, fake profiles. I think that, you know, they’re not immune to that, but it is a safer place. Twitter for I always call Twitter the Star Wars bar of the Internet. So if you want to really up your game in conversation on the Internet, you know, and really work at get get yourself a good hide for thick skin. Twitter is a great place for that. And Twitter is a great place to meet people, to get into conversation around different communities and so on. But it’s much more open to, you know, the trolls of the universe.
Carol Cox:
Agreed. Linkedin definitely feels like because every social media platform has a culture and the culture starts very early on as we know. We see that with Facebook, Instagram, Twitter now with TikTok, but LinkedIn, because it started as really a resume site and very much work focused. Thankfully, I feel like that culture has then kind of provided this etiquette for how people behave on LinkedIn. Exactly.
Wendy Kendall:
And you know, to the point where it can feel a little bit inhibiting about having opinions. If you’re going to disagree with somebody, if you’re going to put it a different way. But I find it not a lot different from if I was in a meeting or, you know, something like that. You’ve got to still got to kind of put your brave pants on and say something and then the comments stay up for longer, which can be both an opportunity and can feel like a threat. Right? But usually people are on reasonably good behavior.
Carol Cox:
Yes. Yeah, completely. All right. So, Wendy, do you have any examples that you can share of practice owners, entrepreneurs you’ve worked with who have started to shift kind of this old way of marketing that they had been trying to do, feeling stuck, feeling like it just didn’t feel an values aligned for them and then kind of this new way and what what came out of that for them.
Wendy Kendall:
Yeah. So speaking a little bit kind of more broadly about what happens with psychologists and therapists on their websites, for example, on their home page, um, a lot of us, and I know I was one of them, um, and also a lot of my clients have done this as well. We get websites that basically tell everyone how many qualifications we’ve got. Like it starts right from the top. Hi, I’m Dr. Such and such. I’ve got ten years at this university. I’ve got a PhD that took me six years and like it really won loads of prizes. So I’m a really good psychologist and they’re coming at it from, um, a good, from a place that’s, you know, from a good place because, because we get told that our differentiator is all of our expertise. It’s all the kind of credentials and qualifications and that that is the thing that’s going to make the difference to people. It’s we’re trying to communicate, You’re safe with me because I’ve got all this, this, this list of credentials. The problem is that we end up in an ivory tower where there’s always there’s already a little bit of a. A tendency for us to be positioned as a kind of ivory tower academic in the broad culture, but then working with people to say, Right, let’s put the focus back on the client so that they know as soon as they come to your website that this is for you, this is you that I’m speaking to.
Wendy Kendall:
So yeah, I mean, I tend to use my own stuff as a, my own stuff as, as an example, as opposed to kind of pick out individual clients. But I remember that my very first kind of very expensive website that I had set up, which I spent a lot of money and time and effort and got a whole branding studio and everything to do it was Wendy kendall.com. I mean, it was nothing about my clients at all. It was it was going to be the ivory tower. And then you know when I look at where we’re at now, we have inspiring site.com. Everything about it on the homepage is about, first of all, recognizing that what people are coming to us for is bring your unique brilliance to your private practice. Because people really, our clients have a lot of desire to help people transform their lives. And and then speaking very much to the experience they have trying to make that work, which is around.
Wendy Kendall:
We know you want to do all these things, but at the moment you’re overwhelmed. You’re working 1 to 1 with clients and your practice is overbooked beyond belief. That makes it really hard to get off that track and so on. And then and then actually the invitation to connect is around. Here’s how we can help you. First of all, to start getting off the overwhelm loop. And it’s almost like a the villain in the story is the overwhelm loop. It’s the thing that’s going to that’s stopping them from moving forward. So that’s an example of of moving and then that’s what we do with our clients, really help them to move in that direction of putting themselves in because our clients know their, their clients in depth like they have a lot of empathy and a lot of understanding of them. And so just trying to bring that out more and put the focus back on on that. And that’s not groundbreaking, right? That’s that’s essentially being the guide, which I think I’ve seen in one of your podcasts and that I’ve seen in, you know, some other marketers talk about as well.
Carol Cox:
And Wendy, when you think about, you know, the, again, the clients you work with, the practice owners, the psychologists, the entrepreneurs, you know, entrepreneurial psychologists, what and you and you talk to them about this new approach to marketing and regenerative marketing, you know, taking out the fears and the pain points and this urgency and scarcity. Do they do they have any resistance to it or they do they have any doubts about taking away some of those marketing tools, which we’ve talked about, psychology like urgency and scarcity also work in a sense from, you know, from a psychological basis, not that they should be used under false pretenses, but there is a way that it forces our brains to make a decision which we may not otherwise not have. So that is there a way that you balance that?
Wendy Kendall:
So we’ve got to think of they’ve got to think about why people make a decision to move into action on a change process. And essentially we have a perspective that says we have to trigger people to make a change. And that’s one paradigm. That’s one way of thinking about it. From a psychological point of view. People go through a series of change processes before they get to that decision point. And so with psychologists, what I’m saying is as opposed to working on creating those triggers all the time, let’s think about how we help people who are at these other earliest stages of the change process and how we resource that so that when it comes to preparing to take an action and taking an action, it feels like a more logical next step. So as opposed to it being a trigger based on urgency and scarcity, it’s an invitation to connect. So I call it a call to connection as as opposed to a call to action. The reason why I mean, we talk about the fact that these kinds of triggers work, and it’s not to say that they don’t. But the other thing that really that we have to think about is this topic of survivorship bias. So we think about what works on the Internet on the basis of what works on the people who stay on the Internet. We don’t think about what is not working for the people who click off. And as a psychologist, thinking about how I’m helping psychologists and therapists to build a community and a relationship that’s longer term with a community I’m thinking about, what about the people who will just click off? This is the the fundamental switch, I think, and the different in the paradigm.
Carol Cox:
Oh, my gosh. Okay, Wendy. Mind blown. I just had like the biggest light bulb. Aha. Moment about the survivorship bias. Brilliant. Okay. Brilliantly said and explained. And then I think about, you know, we talked a little bit ago that we primarily use LinkedIn. I’m not on TikTok, I’m not on Instagram, I’m not on Facebook. I’m no longer on Twitter since, you know, you know, who took it over last fall. And it’s really just like it has changed quite a bit. Like how I used to enjoy it is not there anymore because the way the feed has changed anyways. So my needs as a prospective client of someone where I need something that someone has are not being served by the marketing that they’re doing. Because number one, I don’t see it. But number two, even if I did see it, it would not appeal to me. Right?
Wendy Kendall:
Exactly. Yeah. And for sure, I have a lot of I have even more clients now that are coming through and saying, actually, I don’t want to connect with people on the Internet anymore. So we’ll regenerative marketing work. If I’m just connecting with my local community. And the answer is yes, because then we’re talking about different channels, but we’re still talking about conversations that connect. We’re still talking about having empathy for your clients. You know, if you want to if you want to run an online business as well as an in-person business, you might still need to think about some kind of social media channel. But that might be speaking on podcasts, that might be guest blogging, that might be other ways in which you’re kind of going out there without having to be on some of those different channels. Yeah.
Carol Cox:
All right. Love this, Wendy. And so as we close, I, you know, I like to always remind myself how do I like to be marketed and sold to? And, you know, obviously it’s just not the way that so many of us see on by the online kind of marketing marketing gurus who have run the space for the past 10 or 15 years and really like and back to your point about empathy, putting ourselves in the shoes of our prospective clients and how do they want to be communicated not just to but communicated with.
Wendy Kendall:
Exactly. And there’s a really important point here as well, which is another really important point, which is obviously, you know, the world experienced that pandemic. Other things have been traumatizing. We’re seeing higher rates of issues like anxiety and depression. And the issue with that is those experiences switch peoples patterns of communication and they switch them towards patterns of protection versus patterns of connection. So just because you want to build an online community that connects with people doesn’t mean that people are in a place where they feel like they want to connect. And this is why I’m trying to help people think about how do we help them feel safe to move to connection because it’s likely people have have more armor on now when they’re online. They they have fewer reserves internally. They may be worried about their external reserves, you know, their resources. And they are. Therefore, we’re marketing to people who are more burned out and more in protective mode and just keep pushing the trigger button. I think we’re going to see diminishing returns on that again.
Carol Cox:
So all said, Wendy, thank you so much. I have gotten so much out of our conversation today. Where can listeners connect with you? Well, definitely include a link to your website and LinkedIn in the show notes and in anywhere else we should send people.
Wendy Kendall:
We do have an Instagram account, but it’s not our main profile. Yeah. So if you go to the if you go to our website and click in the dropdown box, there is a link to the Regenerative Marketing Academy. And on there you can access a page that has, as you said, the the LinkedIn live, but also a copy of the in-depth framework and a transcript that I did. So you can get that and download that and just have that for you.
Carol Cox:
All right. Fantastic. Well, what a fantastic resource. Wendy, thank you so much for coming on the Speaking Your Brand podcast. Pleasure.
Wendy Kendall:
Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for your questions. Carol, as well. Really great to speak to.
Carol Cox:
Wasn’t that a fascinating conversation with Wendy? I know that I learned a lot and I’m going to put kind of a fresh lens on the marketing and the messaging that I’m putting out there. Now, I know that for many of us, especially for me, I’ve been in the marketing field for 20 years. It is kind of almost like a muscle memory to lead with pain points and with problems. And certainly I’m not saying that you should never mention or address a potential clients pain points or problems or obstacles or challenges that they have. But I really think that as Wendy and I talked about, kind of leading with that empathy and validation and that they’re not alone is the way to do it versus almost them feeling like they’re their problem, like they shouldn’t have these problems to begin with, which we know is certainly not the case. So, no, I’m going to take a fresh look at what I’m putting out there. And I hope that you do, too. Next week, we’re going to cap off the series that we’ve been doing on how marketing is changing. We’re going to talk all about PR and media with Sheryl Tan. Until next time, thanks for listening.
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